Keto hasn't helped getting glucose levels down yet
I need some help, and I've joined the forum to get some insights, hopefully. Excuse the verbosity, but I need to give enough info here so there's less Q&A with respondents. I've been doing the Keto diet for almost a year. Having lost about 30 pounds, my weight is about where I want it to be - I have maybe about 7 more pounds to lose, and I'll literally be at college level weight (I'm 55). I feel pretty good - not worlds different than last year, except for the weight. The K diet has not been hard for me, in terms of enjoying meals, cooking, finding good foods, cutting out carbs such as rice, sugar, flour, pasta, etc. I've actually had fun learning that I could still have lots of great meals and even deserts with the right substitutes. I have the Carb Manager app and have periodically tracked my intake, but it takes some effort because my meals tend to be full of ingredients. When I have tracked, my ratios are about 75% fat, 20% protien, 5% carbs (measured as NET carbs). Caloric intake is about 2000/day. Where the diet doesn't seem to be succeeding is getting my glucose (G for short) levels down, as measured by the Keto-Mojo and other monitors. My readings are almost always above 100. For example this AM, more than 12 hours since the last meal, several hours after waking up, (i.e. should be out of the dawn effect), G level was 122. I've fasted 24hours without eating (coffee/water only) and although my G levels were lower, they weren't below 100. I exercise about once every 2 days - usually for about 30 minutes and do some HIT. To be honest, it seems like my G levels have been HIGHER on the K diet. Before the K diet and the KM meter came along I took annual wellness tests, and I was below 100. So what's the cause / solution here? What can I try next? The next steps I think I'll have to try is to go even lower on the carbs, like maybe below 20 TOTAL per day. That might be hard because it means reducing or eliminating 'healthy' veggies that I eat like spinach, cauliflower, broccoli, and reducing the nuts I eat like almonds, walnuts, and macadamia. I haven't used the flour subs for a bit. The other option is to eliminate sugar substitutes, or diet coke, or any erythritol-based sweetener. My primary sweetener is liquid Stevia, but sometimes I use monkfruit-based, and sometimes bocasweet, I've been careful not to buy / use stuff that has dextrose or stuff like that. But I have read that some artificial sweeteners can increase insulin levels. Thanks in advance for your help.
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Do you test several times a day? I find that my reading fluctuates throughout the day, dependent upon activity and what I've eaten. https://keto-mojo.com/article/what-should-your-glucose-levels-be/
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Have you been diagnosed pre-diabetic or T2? If so, has your doctor done a C-Peptide test on you to verify T2 Diabetes? Those numbers aren't awful, your A1C is the real barometer of your blood sugar health. Diet Coke is the devil, I know it's hard, but try to wean yourself off of it, artificial sugars do have an affect on insulin, you are on the right track with Stevia and monkfruit they have been proven to be the exception.
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I agree with Danimi that A1C is the acid test marker for blood sugar health, and stop the Diet Coke immediately.
Some of us are just built different and like you, I struggled mightily to get my glucose readings (and A1C) under control at the beginning. I had to start tracking Total Carbs so I had no extra or untracked stuff leaking in to my diet and that helped tremendously. It also helped to KM several times a day to identify what I could/could not eat and get a handle on how my body responded to different foods and serving sizes. My Total Carb limit turned out to be 18 and I’ve been happy and eating well at that level. For a year now. Daily sugars are in the low 80s and A1C is consistently at 5.0.
Not suggesting that what worked for me will work for everybody, but it did take some trial and error (a lot of trial and error), but the results have been well worth the initial pain in the tookas effort. And I’ve been able to maintain things while enjoying spinach, broccoli and the occasional cauliflower; had to be REAL careful with nuts tho.
Hang in there - you’re worth the investment of figuring this out.
Good luck!
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Danimi No, I've not been diagnosed as prediabetic or T2. I have no health issues requiring any medication or Dr guidance. The diet was purely started in order to lose weight that I couldn't lose by other methods. I'm hopefully going to be getting my HbA1C results soon. Had to take the test at home and send it in. No DC eh? I can do it but it's one less thing that I enjoyed previously. .
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I'm the same as you, healthiest obese person you'll ever meet. LOL I'm not paying any attention to my Blood Sugars so I don't have input on them from a "healthy person's"
POV. My husband is opposite, NOT obese, and T2D, however with KETO we have his BS numbers under control, under 110 regularly and looking forward to the next A1C so we can get a good read on how he's doing. We are tracking total carbs and are almost "Ketovore". To lose that last 7 lbs I 2nd the advice of Pat , track Total Carbs for awhile, get those under 30 (as close to 20 or less as you can). I'll bet those last few come off and then you can go back into maintenance levels which you've proven you can do. Congrats at maintaining the 30 lb loss, that really is tremendous. -
Pat F Thanks for that. I can relate to the trial and error. How did you approach the trial and error process other than taking lots of measurements? My meals are complex so it'd be tough to isolate something. In recent days I've been trying not to exceed 20 total carbs, and it may be working. I have some readings below 100 trying that. 20 total definitely cuts a lot out from the diet, just in terms of some of the higher carb veggies or the quantity thereof. Heck it's even hard to have an avocado! Fortunately, I like spinach and broccoli. Most commonly, I was capping carbs at 30g total but I've tried 30g net too. Tried lowering protein from 150g to 100g. That didn't work, which is fine with me because I love meat and I have a fairly muscular form. It's possible that I'm having a specific food or food type reaction but I'm not sure what it would be. Maybe cheese or dairy. Those have never been a problem in a non-keto sense. Just curious what are your ketone levels?
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Danimi I've found that I'm not the only one experiencing both low carb or Keto and still have high BS numbers. There's a few videos on it, though most tie it to the the dawn effect. My effect lasts much longer than just the AM. I can have high BS after a fast though it trends down the whole time, or after a pretty good workout. I've considered doing more fasting and I can easily do it from a hunger standpoint but I do enjoy taking a break and eating something.
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erikehlert good to hear things are trending well once you went with 20 total carbs. I’m sure you can get there.
as for my ketones: I started tracking them 20 Jan 2020 (spreadsheet) and since then they’ve averaged 1.6 with glucose of 91.4. For the last month (Oct), they averaged 2.6 and 84.9.
I don’t know what you mean by ‘complex meal’ but mine are usually a meat of some sort and now and then a vegetable. NO snacks. To isolate what sent my numbers up, I ate just one thing and tested 2.5-hrs after eating. It worked rather well and quickly identified things i needed to limit. I hope that makes sense and good luck.
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Pat F What did you discover as far as food sensitivities? You identified a very intriguing method. When you say you ate one thing for a meal, was it a fair amount of that one thing? For example you ate a brick of cheese? A can or two of DC? The idea could work for me if I pair a lunch 'experiment' (with a test 2.5hrs after) with a big keto dinner. I know I can manage an OMAD pattern so adding a lunch experiment isn't much different. What sort of glucose raise did you need to see after the experimental meal, in order for you to consider the food harmful?
One interesting data point is that in the years before starting Keto, I had an annual biometric screening and my glucose levels were normal. Unfortunately, I didn't measure it in this year until I was on the diet for about 8 months. So there's a weak correlation between starting the K diet and having high glucose. The K diet caused my high blood glucose? That doesn't make a lot of sense because the diet should have the opposite effect. Or, maybe my metabolic syndrome indicators were getting bad between the last test and the prior one, though one wouldn't expect a jump from normal to abnormal that quickly.
I hope to have an Hba1c test back shortly. That should be interesting.
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My A1C went south in less than six months (have it tested every six months due to extreme family history). However, through the K diet, I was able to get it back under control within 4 months so anything is possible.
Background: We’re all different so after discussion with my doctor, we set my ‘upper limit’ at 100. “Normal’ is less than 130 or so, but we wanted a safety buffer. So that’s where my 100 comes from - again, it’s probably different for others and that’s okay.
To test foods, I’d skip breakfast (usually do anyway) and test mid-morning to get the ‘before’ reading. For lunch I’d fix a one course meal: green beans or cottage cheese or whatever it was I was testing. I’d fix one portion per Carb Manager (no brick of cheese). Some things I didn’t test: beef, salmon and such as they don’t have carbs.
I’d take my 2.5-hr post-meat test and examined the reading two ways. If the reading jumped ‘way up’ from the pre-meal reading (PURLY subjective decision), then the next day I’d try it again with a half-portion and check it again. Sometimes it seemed like a half-portion wasn’t worth the effort (it seemed like it was only about a tablespoon or whatever) so I’d just drop that entree entirely. The other way I’d look at the results was how close they got me to 100. If they were mid- to high-90s, I’d do the half-portion test and see how that went. Anything that put me at 100 or higher was immediately dropped from my diet.
The results are that there’s NO grain, beans, or most fruit in my diet. I can have a salad with homemade oil and vinegar dressing, and small portions of broccoli or asparagus. I’ve got to be careful having nuts. It’s not quite carnivore, but I don’t miss anything.
If you find that you really need to kickstart getting your G or A1C down, perhaps something like this might help (again, we’re all different).
Somewhat long winded, but I hope that makes sense.
Good luck!
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Pat F Very informative! I may take this approach as well, although it could take a long time to get through the list of foods I eat on the Keto diet. Fortunately, I don't eat beans, grains, starchy veggies, and fruit was very low and has been pretty much absent lately. So those aren't the culprits. So the high level test list would be like: 1) artificial sweeteners 2) dairy 3) flour substitutes 4) nuts or nut milk; 4) veggies. Obviously there's several types of items in each of these.
Other than being a food reaction the other likely answer is one I found in a Dr. Berg video, below. This would explain why I've never had high BS readings (taken only 1x per year) until I started Keto. Unfortunately what he does not say is how long the 'healing transition' will take. I didn't take my first glucose meter test until I was months into the diet, so unfortunately I can't say exactly when I went from normal to above norm.
There's also the chance that my body is producing a lot of cortisol because I almost never get enough sleep and that hormone is messing with me. And it could be that I wasn't low enough on the carbs. It could be a combination of all of the above. I think it probably is a combo, because I've had BS readings as low as 91, and as high as 135 (not within the same day). So something was right, and then it wasn't.
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I'm a type 1 diabetic a 100 G level is awesome. When "fasting" a person should be between 80-100 you also have know glucose monitors have a 20% variance so a 100 level on meter could be in reality 80-120. My G level is about 90 when I wake up I'm on a insulin pump and have a CGM (continuous glucose monitor) my sugar usually only goes up 40-50 points the whole day. Good luck
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Hi there, everyone has had good ideas and I would second them, but there are two things nobody has said yet. First, yes the sweeteners may be the culprit but I think there is a good chance they are not, unless bocasweet, which I am unfamiliar with, is doing something to you. There is a theory that anything that revokes the taste "sweet" will spoke your insulin levels, however there hasn't been a study of truly natural sweeteners like stevia and monkfruit. I have tested these on myself and found no impact on my blood sugars. Ymmv. The other thing I wanted to say is that is possible you have a fatty liver. I am not familiar with all the tests or things necessary to diagnose a fatty liver but I have seen many you tube videos which show the science that when you are in ketosis the body will start to break up the stored fat in your liver and the broken down triglycerides will then go into the bloodstream and act as a fuel. This process is desirable but can drive skewed results such as raising your glucose level. In this instancea raised glucose level is not a bad thing, it just means the glucose is not the preferred fuel source while the fatty liver is healing.
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I have to say I feel ya!! I’m 53 and in my adult life I probably haven’t had a blood sugar under 95 in 20 years… I just discovered intermittent fasting. I woke up this morning to a blood sugar of 70! It kind of sounds like what you’re dealing with is insulin resistance. I am not a doctor so please don’t take this is medical information. Studies have shown that doing a 72 hour Fast, is the beginning of retraining your pancreas what to do about insulin. I did not reading your post that you were doing any fasting. If you haven’t done it I would definitely give that a shot. If you’ve never fasted don’t start out with three days! If you’re already doing eating cycles of 16 or 18 hour fast then 24 is no big deal! It’s when you get into the 48+ hours when you start to notice those sugars dropping. Sometimes after 24 hours I would actually watch my sugar go up! I’m like what the heck! I haven’t had anything to eat in 24 hours how can my sugar be higher than when I started! It all has to do with your liver. When your liver doesn’t think you have enough to sustain yourself it’ll kick out more glucose in this is kind of what I’ve been understanding. For me, it was probably at about 30 our time frame where my sugar dropped to 75. I still Felt great! I still went to the gym and did my cardio took my dog for a walk and ran around and did my errands and didn’t feel in the slightest like I was deprived. If you’ve not done fast you need to read the book by Jimmy Moore intermittent fasting it has a green cover. Within the first chapter it explains so much of exactly what you’re talking about. It kind of sounds like doing these 3 to 5 day fast a little bit more frequently set a pattern and retrained your body for insulin. I’m going to probably do this for the next three months and go back in to get my labs redrawn. In the meantime I would tell you to look up insulin resistance and see if that fits your criteria and then definitely go to Amazon right after you read this and get that book. I too was super frustrated. I was eating all the right things keeping my carbs at 15 to 17 per day, exercising, and doing everything I thought I needed to do. And then I test my blood sugar 102… I think I’m onto something now that works for me! I hope this helps you out.
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I’ve tried three times to share this post and for some reason the app keeps clicking out while I do a three paragraph reply! Anyways it kind of sounds like you’re having some issues with insulin resistance. I am not a doctor and cannot give you medical advice but I would definitely look that up. My whole adult life I’ve not had a blood sugar under 90. I did everything right in keto, 15 to 17 g a day exercise every day with good cardio and still in the 90s. Go on Amazon right now and look up intermittent fasting by Jimmy Moore.Order that today within the first chapter I think that will explain so much for you. People think fasting means that you’re gonna lose your muscle, you won’t be able to get off the couch, you won’t be able to do anything… I just finished my first 48 hour fast and had a blood sugar of 75 before I eat again. I eat a low-carb dinner went to bed, and this morning I got up to a blood sugar of 70! I don’t think I’ve ever seen that in my life! When you read the book you’ll see studies are showing that doing 3 to 5 day fasting kind of resets your system and doing this consistently over. A period of time will retrain your pancreas. If you’ve not done any fasting don’t jump into these long massive facts before you learn how to do it. Lots and lots of water and tea, but if it all possible stay away from the diet drinks they really are the devil. If you feel you can’t do it it’s OK to stop. But start with a 24 then go to a 48 the next time and then the next time go to a 72. Making sure you stay super hydrated and I can put a pinch of salt and some warm water in the morning to make sure that I’m not throwing off my electrolytes.Like I said I’m not a doctor but my story sounds just like yours. And I think getting that book would be the best thing you could do today. Good luck! I hope your next post is the eye-opener like I had this morning :-)
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It's hard to say without getting more information... If your HIGH in protein, you will experience what you are... Proteins with be converted to glucose through gluconeogenesis, if you're fat consumption isn't high enough... If your looking to drop your glucose numbers drop your proteins as well.
